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	<title>Comments on: How long does it have to be?</title>
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	<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/</link>
	<description>technology, libraries, and schools</description>
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		<title>By: Do we care what they say? &#124; Not So Distant Future</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-2247</link>
		<dc:creator>Do we care what they say? &#124; Not So Distant Future</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-2247</guid>
		<description>[...] morning, someone on Twitter reminded me of a blog post I wrote a long time ago, &#8220;How Long Does it Have to be?&#8221; about how students focused on the length of their research papers because they aren&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] morning, someone on Twitter reminded me of a blog post I wrote a long time ago, &#8220;How Long Does it Have to be?&#8221; about how students focused on the length of their research papers because they aren&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jbailey</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jbailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1379</guid>
		<description>Great post!  I can really relate to this as a high school English teacher.  I know that from personal experience when I was met with a page minimum I would typically fluff what I had in order to make the cut.  I recall one of the hardest assignments I ever did was for a class I took overseas because they had a MAXIMUM word count.  I really had to be concise and figure out what was the most important thing to discuss.

It&#039;s similar to the old myth that paragraphs need to be 3-5 sentences.  I had a grammar professor in college disprove that edict by showing us essentially any page of dialog in a novel.  Paragraphs can be one word if they are a complete thought.

Wow.

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!  I can really relate to this as a high school English teacher.  I know that from personal experience when I was met with a page minimum I would typically fluff what I had in order to make the cut.  I recall one of the hardest assignments I ever did was for a class I took overseas because they had a MAXIMUM word count.  I really had to be concise and figure out what was the most important thing to discuss.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s similar to the old myth that paragraphs need to be 3-5 sentences.  I had a grammar professor in college disprove that edict by showing us essentially any page of dialog in a novel.  Paragraphs can be one word if they are a complete thought.</p>
<p>Wow.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: gregg</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1346</link>
		<dc:creator>gregg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1346</guid>
		<description>Your wonderful post reminded of a passage for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance in which Pirsig discusses a rhetorical writing assignment where a student is blocked until she is asked to focus, and I’m paraphrasing her, “on one brick above the door of Bozeman Opera house”.  At that point she turns in a 3000 word essay.   One point here is that students are taught to give teachers and parents what they want to hear, in a certain approved format.  While I understand the need for structure, it seems that the original voices of the students can be lost trying to meet the criteria of “how” a project is presented and that what they need to be encouraged to do is to think about the “why” of the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your wonderful post reminded of a passage for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance in which Pirsig discusses a rhetorical writing assignment where a student is blocked until she is asked to focus, and I’m paraphrasing her, “on one brick above the door of Bozeman Opera house”.  At that point she turns in a 3000 word essay.   One point here is that students are taught to give teachers and parents what they want to hear, in a certain approved format.  While I understand the need for structure, it seems that the original voices of the students can be lost trying to meet the criteria of “how” a project is presented and that what they need to be encouraged to do is to think about the “why” of the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: From the Classroom Blogging Doldrums: What Would Teacher 2.0 Do? &#124; Beyond School</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1343</link>
		<dc:creator>From the Classroom Blogging Doldrums: What Would Teacher 2.0 Do? &#124; Beyond School</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 02:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1343</guid>
		<description>[...] given the wheel for the later books, and expected to do the same. (See Carolyn Foote&#8217;s &#8220;How Long Does It Have to Be?&#8221; post about homework load for more on this, and read Alfie Kohn&#8217;s The Truth About [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] given the wheel for the later books, and expected to do the same. (See Carolyn Foote&#8217;s &#8220;How Long Does It Have to Be?&#8221; post about homework load for more on this, and read Alfie Kohn&#8217;s The Truth About [...]</p>
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		<title>By: BlogTeacher</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1342</link>
		<dc:creator>BlogTeacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1342</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not just children!  The first words out of my adult learners &#039; mouths on discovering they are expected to prduce a &quot;project&quot; are the same!

I&#039;ve tried a number of things t overcome it, since the simple fact they can do it on anything like like doesn&#039;t seem enough.

As Marie comments, getting the learners to understand the standards we&#039;re marking to would be an excellent start.  I&#039;ve tried several things to try and aid that, from examples of good completed projects, to simple language explanations of the handed-down-from-on-high &quot;standards&quot;.  

Mixed success but I&#039;ll keep at it.  Would be interested to hear from anyone who has successfully helped students get to grips with assessment criteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not just children!  The first words out of my adult learners &#8216; mouths on discovering they are expected to prduce a &#8220;project&#8221; are the same!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tried a number of things t overcome it, since the simple fact they can do it on anything like like doesn&#8217;t seem enough.</p>
<p>As Marie comments, getting the learners to understand the standards we&#8217;re marking to would be an excellent start.  I&#8217;ve tried several things to try and aid that, from examples of good completed projects, to simple language explanations of the handed-down-from-on-high &#8220;standards&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Mixed success but I&#8217;ll keep at it.  Would be interested to hear from anyone who has successfully helped students get to grips with assessment criteria.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Richards</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1337</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite poems says a lot in only eight lines. William Meredith died in May 2007. About 10 years ago I attended a Bread Loaf Vermont reading when he struggled mightily and read this poem. 

A Major Work

Poems are hard to read 
Pictures are hard to see 
Music is hard to hear 
And people are hard to love 

But whether from brute need 
Or divine energy 
At last mind eye and ear 
and the great sloth heart will move.

~ William Meredith (1919-2007 )
http://tinyurl.com/2tavyg

&quot;Meredith began to suffer from expressive aphasia after a stroke in 1983. This means that he has lost the ability to express himself at will. As the poet Michael Collier explains in his foreword to Meredith&#039;s most recent publication, Effort at Speech: &quot;Trapped, as it were, inside his body, which has profoundly betrayed him, for the past decade and a half Meredith has remained occupied with the poet&#039;s struggle—the struggle to speak.&#039;&quot;
http://tinyurl.com/25p59b</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite poems says a lot in only eight lines. William Meredith died in May 2007. About 10 years ago I attended a Bread Loaf Vermont reading when he struggled mightily and read this poem. </p>
<p>A Major Work</p>
<p>Poems are hard to read<br />
Pictures are hard to see<br />
Music is hard to hear<br />
And people are hard to love </p>
<p>But whether from brute need<br />
Or divine energy<br />
At last mind eye and ear<br />
and the great sloth heart will move.</p>
<p>~ William Meredith (1919-2007 )<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2tavyg" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2tavyg</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Meredith began to suffer from expressive aphasia after a stroke in 1983. This means that he has lost the ability to express himself at will. As the poet Michael Collier explains in his foreword to Meredith&#8217;s most recent publication, Effort at Speech: &#8220;Trapped, as it were, inside his body, which has profoundly betrayed him, for the past decade and a half Meredith has remained occupied with the poet&#8217;s struggle—the struggle to speak.&#8217;&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/25p59b" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/25p59b</a></p>
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		<title>By: Marie Coleman</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1336</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1336</guid>
		<description>Connect them with twitter and the 140 character limit!  ;)

On another note, what about using good rubrics to reinforce quality versus quantity...or at least, provide students with the criteria for assessment!  Too often, I think we assume that our students understand our expectations for projects/assignments.  Rubrics can not only serve as an assessment tool, but a teaching tool, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Connect them with twitter and the 140 character limit!  <img src='http://futura.edublogs.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>On another note, what about using good rubrics to reinforce quality versus quantity&#8230;or at least, provide students with the criteria for assessment!  Too often, I think we assume that our students understand our expectations for projects/assignments.  Rubrics can not only serve as an assessment tool, but a teaching tool, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/comment-page-1/#comment-1335</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://futura.edublogs.org/2007/11/14/how-long-does-it-have-to-be/#comment-1335</guid>
		<description>Carolyn,

There is something wonderfully focused about a blog posting. As you noted, the object is to let the content determine the length; padding and circumlocution become immediately obvious and detract from the power of the writing.

My students asked to do a PowerPoint project, and I set a number of slides - not as a minimum, but as a maximum to keep this from turning into another endless, rambling presentation. Then I asked each member of the class to complete a reflection page. Question 1 was: name 3 specific things that you did well. One student responded: the beginning, the middle, the end. We&#039;re still working on our analysis and communication skills!

I like your idea of a 1 slide project. It will be interesting to see how they define themselves.

diane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carolyn,</p>
<p>There is something wonderfully focused about a blog posting. As you noted, the object is to let the content determine the length; padding and circumlocution become immediately obvious and detract from the power of the writing.</p>
<p>My students asked to do a PowerPoint project, and I set a number of slides &#8211; not as a minimum, but as a maximum to keep this from turning into another endless, rambling presentation. Then I asked each member of the class to complete a reflection page. Question 1 was: name 3 specific things that you did well. One student responded: the beginning, the middle, the end. We&#8217;re still working on our analysis and communication skills!</p>
<p>I like your idea of a 1 slide project. It will be interesting to see how they define themselves.</p>
<p>diane</p>
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